Renewal Class Scrubbed...

[Younggun]

Ummmm, isn't that $12.50 per hour per student? So if there are 10 people in the class, it is $125.00 per hour x 4 hours = $500 per class taught?

What are the expenses the instructor incurs for the room etc? Not trying to throw fuel on the fire, just asking to better understand. Thanks.

.

I don't know ALL the expenses but I do know of one instructor who had to rent a classroom to teach in.

He was able to just break even for the most part and let his instructors misconception lapse because it came to a point it wasn't worth it anymore.

Great guy and one who would have had a damned good class, wish he was still teaching when I got mine.

I don't intend for this to be considered across the board for all instructors. Smaller towns around here, 20 would be a pretty big class.


Also keep in mind, if the class is not rented it had to be built, that costs money too. Plus range fees if they don't have a private range, targets, time setting up classroom materials, etc.


I did catch that in your example you said all the local instructors were getting together to set their rates higher so they wouldn't have to deal with price competition. If that was the case I see it as being kinda dirty and would probably choose a different instructor on that basis alone.

 

[Hoji]

Well, let me see......I charge $150/hr for technical services, portal to portal. You want me to review something and give you my "Expert Opinion"? Sure - it's $150/hr...includin' all research time, etc.

Those instructors have to pay for the classroom, teaching materials, etc. You may not think much of it, but it has a cost. They also have to spend time setting up the classes, do the paperwork for the state, and have ongoing education to maintain their certifications. So it's not the gravy train that ya might think.

You forgot the cost of MOST classes include range fees, lunch in some cases, and the use of a firearm in some cases as well. And insurance.

 

[Hoji]

These little children, trying to call me out again for accurately and in context stating...facts...

They keep forgetting I've been an CHL and small arms instructor for decades, and run large classes...fifty students and up...every few weeks. For free. But then, I am a professional instructor, Master class shooter, gunsmith, manufacturer, and owner of a quite profitable gun company. What the hell do I know about the industry?

FlashBang did the math very well...instructors can make a ton of cash off even renewals under the current system, and many of the less scrupulous are very happy to take advantage of the idiots that consider themselves our masters by crying rivers about their lack of income, err, "unsafe conditions" if training mandates are reduced...


Alex

You have not been a CHL instructor in Texas for decades as the program has only been in effect since 1995.

 

[TexasRedneck]

You forgot the cost of MOST classes include range fees, lunch in some cases, and the use of a firearm in some cases as well. And insurance.

I was trying to keep it simple....some folks have NO concept of what it really costs to be a stand-alone business, and think that there's no other costs involved.

 

[Hoji]

Ummmm, isn't that $12.50 per hour per student? So if there are 10 people in the class, it is $125.00 per hour x 4 hours = $500 per class taught?

What are the expenses the instructor incurs for the room etc? Not trying to throw fuel on the fire, just asking to better understand. Thanks.

.

You also have to take into account that if you advertise a class and only 2 people show up for it you are operating at a loss. That happens a lot more than you think. Just ask Texas1911 or Sig_fiend.

 

[Hoji]

I was trying to keep it simple....some folks have NO concept of what it really costs to be a stand-alone business, and think that there's no other costs involved.

Not a knock at you( odd as that is) but simply adding to your accurate cost representation.

 

[TexasRedneck]

Didn't take umbrage....just always amazes me how folks overlook even the most basic of P&L factors. Frankly, there's just no way I'd do CHL instruction as a "business". If I enjoyed the teaching aspect, or if I was using it as a compliment to other business services - or even to just screw w/the system, yeah - but NOT as a "profit center"!!

 

[txinvestigator]

I have also spent years learning and refining my craft. I have spent countless hours and a lot of money taking firearms classes, seeking out the opinion and guidance of attorneys, other instructors and mentors. I spent time and effort researching laws, case law, and sharpening my knowledge. I created my own power point presentations as well as a student workbook that I give to all students.

All of that has value.

 

[V-Tach]

No, not all CHL Instructors are greedy Bitches, but there are some out here......We do CHL as part of our business plan (gun shop/indoor range), which also includes many NRA courses and private instruction. We didn't have an indoor range when we started, but working three jobs, a few years of hard work and making good decisions got us here.

Losing CHL renewals will not cause us to go out of business. I don't personally mind changing over to the internet only renewals. I also support the reduced time for CHL classes. If we eventually go to no CHL classes at all, we will survive.

I look for the number of CHL instructors to decrease. I also look for the cost of classes to decrease, due to competition and other mitigating factors.

jmho.......

 

[txinvestigator]

If there are fewer Instructors, competition will not decrease. I predict more people will apply now. I also know many instructors will not bother to go get the additional certification required to keep teaching.

I do not think fees for classes will drop much, if at all. I am not charging students by the hour.

 

[Brains]

FWIW, I felt $100 was a fair cost for my CHL class. It included the instruction (obviously), B-27 target, use of the range, hearing and eye protection if you needed it, and someone to answer as many questions as the class cared to ask - no matter how silly or serious. I'm all for the instructor making money, how much they make is not my concern. My concern is if their service is worth the cost. If it wasn't, well I wouldn't have taken the class. If instructors are getting rich off CHL classes? More power to them.

Granted, I would like to ideally not need the course at all, but I also learned more than just what was required by the law - so that has value.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

You also have to take into account that if you advertise a class and only 2 people show up for it you are operating at a loss. That happens a lot more than you think. Just ask Texas1911 or Sig_fiend.

This is the damn truth. It's also why I haven't been offering any open-enrollment classes lately, save for a few 1 on 1's here and there. I can't tell you how many times I've had people flake out, want to reschedule, cancel at the last minute, or simply not show up. The worst is when I am forced to cancel or reschedule a class in which I have others signed up, as they're not going to be too happy about that. Not to mention, these "inconveniences" can put a serious strain on the other businesses you deal with (range), that may be expecting a certain amount of income from fees on your class, potentially ruining that relationship.

Unless you own your own classroom, range, website that already gets good traffic, and basically all the resources in between, there is always overhead that can sometimes make or break these things. There's a reason not many people in the general business of training ever get rich at it. The ones that do are either lucky, the right place at the right time, or have built a marketable and popular brand (most of these businesses will never become that popular or "viral"), or they've built their own name into a "brand" (To the point people bug them about the clothing they are wearing in random Facebook pics. LOL).

I think that the new class hours reduction, as well as this deal with renewals will actually be a benefit. It will allow some instructors to be much more creative, and potentially able to offer a much "better" or more effective class that people might actually get more out of. True, there will of course be the "bottom feeders" out there that will simply take advantage of the reduced hours to offer an even lower quality class than before. Unfortunately they exist in every industry. One thing to take into account, as an instructor, is the fact that many studies in adult learning show that the average attention span is roughly 45min of every hour, and only about 4hrs per day. Beyond that, things are considerably less effective in getting across. An 8-10hr legal class is absolute hell at that point, and sort of an exercise in futility.

The CHL class, by it's nature, is basically a law/legal class, and really does nothing (as far as what is legally required) to teach a person how to actually concealed carry a firearm and run it from concealment. With fewer mandated hours, I can already think of several creative ways a person can still give the student much of what they need to know within that time frame, and how they can structure the class (possibly a multi-day class) in such a manner so as to actually teach BOTH sides of the equation (legal + the actual application).

As far as renewals, I really have no problem with removing the requirement for a class. Any intelligent person should understand that they still need to seek continued education, keep up to date on the laws, keep in practice with their skill sets, etc. So instead of the government forcing us to do this, why don't we simply turn around and start encouraging people to seek continued education? Encourage that thirst for knowledge. Learn because your life might depend on it, not because the state mandates it. I'm an idealist, so maybe that won't even make a difference, but it's the way I see things.

 

[Hoji]

This is the damn truth. It's also why I haven't been offering any open-enrollment classes lately, save for a few 1 on 1's here and there. I can't tell you how many times I've had people flake out, want to reschedule, cancel at the last minute, or simply not show up. The worst is when I am forced to cancel or reschedule a class in which I have others signed up, as they're not going to be too happy about that. Not to mention, these "inconveniences" can put a serious strain on the other businesses you deal with (range), that may be expecting a certain amount of income from fees on your class, potentially ruining that relationship.

Unless you own your own classroom, range, website that already gets good traffic, and basically all the resources in between, there is always overhead that can sometimes make or break these things. There's a reason not many people in the general business of training ever get rich at it. The ones that do are either lucky, the right place at the right time, or have built a marketable and popular brand (most of these businesses will never become that popular or "viral"), or they've built their own name into a "brand" (To the point people bug them about the clothing they are wearing in random Facebook pics. LOL).

I think that the new class hours reduction, as well as this deal with renewals will actually be a benefit. It will allow some instructors to be much more creative, and potentially able to offer a much "better" or more effective class that people might actually get more out of. True, there will of course be the "bottom feeders" out there that will simply take advantage of the reduced hours to offer an even lower quality class than before. Unfortunately they exist in every industry. One thing to take into account, as an instructor, is the fact that many studies in adult learning show that the average attention span is roughly 45min of every hour, and only about 4hrs per day. Beyond that, things are considerably less effective in getting across. An 8-10hr legal class is absolute hell at that point, and sort of an exercise in futility.

The CHL class, by it's nature, is basically a law/legal class, and really does nothing (as far as what is legally required) to teach a person how to actually concealed carry a firearm and run it from concealment. With fewer mandated hours, I can already think of several creative ways a person can still give the student much of what they need to know within that time frame, and how they can structure the class (possibly a multi-day class) in such a manner so as to actually teach BOTH sides of the equation (legal + the actual application).

As far as renewals, I really have no problem with removing the requirement for a class. Any intelligent person should understand that they still need to seek continued education, keep up to date on the laws, keep in practice with their skill sets, etc. So instead of the government forcing us to do this, why don't we simply turn around and start encouraging people to seek continued education? Encourage that thirst for knowledge. Learn because your life might depend on it, not because the state mandates it. I'm an idealist, so maybe that won't even make a difference, but it's the way I see things.

my only real problem with getting rid of a renewal class is the lack of a range qualification. If retires LEOs have to recertify every 12 months, and security officers every 2 years, ( not to mention police departments as often as quarterly) then a citizen licensed to carry should, at a minimum, requalify on the range every five years.

 

[V-Tach]

This is the damn truth. It's also why I haven't been offering any open-enrollment classes lately, save for a few 1 on 1's here and there. I can't tell you how many times I've had people flake out, want to reschedule, cancel at the last minute, or simply not show up. The worst is when I am forced to cancel or reschedule a class in which I have others signed up, as they're not going to be too happy about that. Not to mention, these "inconveniences" can put a serious strain on the other businesses you deal with (range), that may be expecting a certain amount of income from fees on your class, potentially ruining that relationship.

After 6 years of not requiring a deposit, we have had to start doing so becuase of exactly the same reasons as you stated........

If there are fewer Instructors, competition will not decrease. I predict more people will apply now. I also know many instructors will not bother to go get the additional certification required to keep teaching.

I do not think fees for classes will drop much, if at all. I am not charging students by the hour.

After thinking about your response, your remarks makes more sense....

We don't charge by the hour either, but we are less expensive for our classes than other instructors in the area, because we don't charge a range fee, per se.

my only real problem with getting rid of a renewal class is the lack of a range qualification. If retires LEOs have to recertify every 12 months, and security officers every 2 years, ( not to mention police departments as often as quarterly) then a citizen licensed to carry should, at a minimum, requalify on the range every five years.

I agree, but it's not going to happen....

 

[FlashBang]

Well, let me see......I charge $150/hr for technical services, portal to portal. You want me to review something and give you my "Expert Opinion"? Sure - it's $150/hr...includin' all research time, etc.

Those instructors have to pay for the classroom, teaching materials, etc. You may not think much of it, but it has a cost. They also have to spend time setting up the classes, do the paperwork for the state, and have ongoing education to maintain their certifications. So it's not the gravy train that ya might think.

I don't think it's a gravy train, I'm just trying to get a real idea of what the actual cost vs. profit is on it.
So if an instructor gets 125.00 per class of 10 per hour, for a 4 hour class he/she makes $500. Looking around, I see some ranges that charge $10 per hour per student for the qualification range time. Let's just say an hour for qualification.. so that takes $100 out of the total profit, which leaves $400. Now, the training class room also costs, not sure what that cost per student is though, or if it is a flat cost. "IF" the room rental cost $150 flat, that leaves $250 profit, or $62.50 per hour. Not counting gas to drive there, investment into a laptop/projector, ongoing training investment to maintain instructor license, liability insurance, etc., an earnings of $62.50 per hour for delivering training really is not ( in my book ) that excessive. Heck, I have to take 40 CPE's per year to maintain my professional license and the cost of the CPE's is way higher per hour then that.

I suppose if an instructor were doing two 4 hour training classes 5 days of the week they could make a living, but if not... don't quit your day job.

.

 

[Bithabus]

my only real problem with getting rid of a renewal class is the lack of a range qualification. If retires LEOs have to recertify every 12 months, and security officers every 2 years, ( not to mention police departments as often as quarterly) then a citizen licensed to carry should, at a minimum, requalify on the range every five years.

That is different and here is why:

A Police Officer may be required to use his weapon as a job function. In order to ensure people employed as Police Officers are able to meet this aspect of their job function, regular testing is necessary. It is no different from an annual vision test for a bus driver. And, the Police enjoy greater protections from liability than do average citizens.

You are equivocating a condition of employment with a civil right.

 

[mosin]

my only real problem with getting rid of a renewal class is the lack of a range qualification. If retires LEOs have to recertify every 12 months, and security officers every 2 years, ( not to mention police departments as often as quarterly) then a citizen licensed to carry should, at a minimum, requalify on the range every five years.

To speak nothing of the constitutional carry states, Florida has 1 million ccw holders that took a quicky $50 class shot one time and never qualed or took a class for a renewal. Not exactly over run with public NDs. Aren't you using the same "it'll be the wild west" logice the dems use?

 

[Hoji]

That is different and here is why:

A Police Officer may be required to use his weapon as a job function. In order to ensure people employed as Police Officers are able to meet this aspect of their job function, regular testing is necessary. It is no different from an annual vision test for a bus driver. And, the Police enjoy greater protections from liability than do average citizens.

You are equivocating a condition of employment with a civil right.

Retired LEOs are private citizens. Security officers enjoy no extra protection either.

 

[Hoji]

To speak nothing of the constitutional carry states, Florida has 1 million ccw holders that took a quicky $50 class shot one time and never qualed or took a class for a renewal. Not exactly over run with public NDs. Aren't you using the same "it'll be the wild west" logice the dems use?

No, I am not. As long as there is a license required, ( we do not have Constitutional Carry in Texas) then having someone prove a minimal amount of proficiency every five years to maintain a license to carry is not unreasonable. Remember, one of the biggest advantages to a CHL is reciprocity with other states. If we lower our standards too much, we could lose that.

 

[Hoji]

I don't think it's a gravy train, I'm just trying to get a real idea of what the actual cost vs. profit is on it.
So if an instructor gets 125.00 per class of 10 per hour, for a 4 hour class he/she makes $500. Looking around, I see some ranges that charge $10 per hour per student for the qualification range time. Let's just say an hour for qualification.. so that takes $100 out of the total profit, which leaves $400. Now, the training class room also costs, not sure what that cost per student is though, or if it is a flat cost. "IF" the room rental cost $150 flat, that leaves $250 profit, or $62.50 per hour. Not counting gas to drive there, investment into a laptop/projector, ongoing training investment to maintain instructor license, liability insurance, etc., an earnings of $62.50 per hour for delivering training really is not ( in my book ) that excessive. Heck, I have to take 40 CPE's per year to maintain my professional license and the cost of the CPE's is way higher per hour then that.

I suppose if an instructor were doing two 4 hour training classes 5 days of the week they could make a living, but if not... don't quit your day job.

.

There is also the cost of liability insurance.