Gun Safe Advice

[Booyah]

Underwriters Laboratories is the most widely accepted standard for the construction of and testing of safes. The criteria for testing actual safes comes from the UL-687 standard. If we go by that standard, virtually every "safe" any of us have in our homes does not qualify as a safe. Of all the "safes" out there that most of own and that have been UL tested, they are tested to the UL-1037 standard for residential security container (RSC), which is a lower standard. That is where some of the differing terminology (safe, cabinet, container etc.) comes from I think.

 

[RACER X]

The anti-gun movement has convinced a lot of gun owners to spend big money on a gun safe.

Why? They want to bankrupt us for our hobby.

Unlike Europe, there is no law that requires us to buy a safe to store our firearms.

Safes might provide some limited fire protection, but if your home burns down, it is more likely the safe will just "cook" your guns and ammo.

As for burglary, a sturdy steel cabinet is just as much protection as a bank vault, since the miscreant does not want to get caught in the act.

As for home invasions, most of those are committed by known associates.

I'll take my chances with a hidden gun in every room of my home, and all the rest locked in sturdy steel gun cabinets.

If a $xxxx safe is going to break you, then you might need to quit investing in guns since they're typically $xxx+ and work on improving your financial situation.

 

[picker]

If I were in the market for a safe, I think I would compare size to size the dollars and then the deal decider..........Weight, other varibles of course but I want as much Iron per dollar as I can get.
Happy New Year...............Best/joe

 

[TheDan]

Underwriters Laboratories is the most widely accepted standard for the construction of and testing of safes. The criteria for testing actual safes comes from the UL-687 standard. If we go by that standard, virtually every "safe" any of us have in our homes does not qualify as a safe. Of all the "safes" out there that most of own and that have been UL tested, they are tested to the UL-1037 standard for residential security container (RSC), which is a lower standard. That is where some of the differing terminology (safe, cabinet, container etc.) comes from I think.

That's good info; need to look into UL-687 more...

Any security container is better than just leaning them up in the closet, tho

 

[Tejano Scott]

The safe hunt is still on. Probably going to spend an anticipated tax refund on it, so I have a few months to decide still. Sturdy definitely makes a quality product. I'm looking at smaller safes than I wanted because most of the large 72"+ safes have at most 3/8" plate door due to weight constraints with the door. Plus the 72" would have probably been complete nuclear sized overkill in size for me. The 60-66" range is more than enough for current and future plans.

I've watched all of the videos and more that were posted in this thread. Youtube has been overall disappointing on this topic. Normally you have so many videos on one topic that its hard to choose what to watch. The overall quality of the Gun Safe Review videos really suck too. You have almost no first hand customer reviews worth watching, I guess because everyone wants to be super secret about their safe. I get that. But for an item I'm about to spend thousands of dollars on, I'd expect to see a lot more internet videos.

The same goes for online reviews. Its tough to trust reviews generated by manufacturers and dealers. Again, the customer voice in this arena is woefully inadequate. I've learned more from internet gun forums about safes, and customer's opinions of them, than anywhere else thus far. I will study this subject to death, like I do everything.

Based on recommendations in this thread, I've checked out Champion and Browning. I have to admit, the newer Browning safes took me by surprise in terms of quality of interior and more secure than their past offerings. They've stepped it up. Thanks everyone for the recommendations and keep them coming.

 

[TheDan]

an anticipated tax refund

wait... You lent the government money interest free all year? Shame on you!

Get the bigger one even if you don't think you'll need it. Unless you just like the idea of having multiple safes

 

[Charlie]

wait... You lent the government money interest free all year? Shame on you!

Get the bigger one even if you don't think you'll need it. Unless you just like the idea of having multiple safes

This ^^^^^^^

 

[Booyah]

That's good info; need to look into UL-687 more...

Any security container is better than just leaning them up in the closet, tho

Actually getting hold of the specific info on any of UL's standards is amazingly difficult. Developing these standards is their bread and butter and they don't just give up that info for free. Any products that have passed any of the UL-687 tests will usually proudly advertise their rating and it will begin with a TL...TL-15, TL-30 ect. There is a reason though why most of us don't have safes rated at this level...they are big bucks. You may also see advertised UL ratings that are B rated, C rated etc. These are construction standards not testing standards. That is not bad...just different. Those products have been certified to be built to certain standards (door thickness, wall thickness etc.) but have not been actually tested against intrusion in the lab.

You are correct about any RSC being more than good enough for most of the needs of the average person. The thing is though that RSCs cover a wide range of prices...from a few hundred dollars for a Sentry safe at home depot to many thousands of dollars for high end Champion, Fort Knox and the like. For an average Joe bugler, with no special knowledge of safes, the higher end RSCs are more secure. Against a knowledgeable safe thief with tools however, all RSCs are the same regardless of how much you paid for them...they will get into any of them in less than 5 minutes. That is where the TL rated safes come into their own. You just have to know what your needs are and how much you are willing to pay for it.

 

[peeps]

Actually getting hold of the specific info on any of UL's standards is amazingly difficult. Developing these standards is their bread and butter and they don't just give up that info for free. Any products that have passed any of the UL-687 tests will usually proudly advertise their rating and it will begin with a TL...TL-15, TL-30 ect. There is a reason though why most of us don't have safes rated at this level...they are big bucks. You may also see advertised UL ratings that are B rated, C rated etc. These are construction standards not testing standards. That is not bad...just different. Those products have been certified to be built to certain standards (door thickness, wall thickness etc.) but have not been actually tested against intrusion in the lab.

You are correct about any RSC being more than good enough for most of the needs of the average person. The thing is though that RSCs cover a wide range of prices...from a few hundred dollars for a Sentry safe at home depot to many thousands of dollars for high end Champion, Fort Knox and the like. For an average Joe bugler, with no special knowledge of safes, the higher end RSCs are more secure. Against a knowledgeable safe thief with tools however, all RSCs are the same regardless of how much you paid for them...they will get into any of them in less than 5 minutes. That is where the TL rated safes come into their own. You just have to know what your needs are and how much you are willing to pay for it.

So you're saying that, for the professional, it matters not what the UL rating is, they're all trash? Simple question to anyone here: which specific safes would the above average burglar, who is smart but not a hollywood-style safe wizard, fail to break into?

 

[V-Tach]

A safe is only one part of an overall security plan, imho. Can I prevent someone from being successful at of a burglary? Depends on a lot of factors, of course. A quality safe takes more time.

I cannot stop a professional most likely, if they have time. My main goal is to be as secure as I can afford and slow them down as much as possible which doesn't give them the luxury of time.

jmho...

 

[Booyah]

So you're saying that, for the professional, it matters not what the UL rating is, they're all trash? Simple question to anyone here: which specific safes would the above average burglar, who is smart but not a hollywood-style safe wizard, fail to break into?

No, that's not quite what I am saying. The ratings do matter. It would take a professional burglar significantly more time to get into a safe that is TL-30 rated than it would take them to get into a safe rated as an RSC. Where it starts to become meaningless to a professional is when different safes are within the same rating level. Take two safes, one very basic that only costs a few hundred dollars...the other a $5000 top of the line model with all the bells and whistles...and they are both rated as an RSC. To a professional burglar, the extra money spent on the top of the line safe and all the extra features don't mean squat...he will get into either of them within 5 minutes using tools. If all the extra security features that the mass market safes try to sell you on really made that big of a difference they would get their safes rated to a higher standard to prove it. As it is...most of the mass market safes out there only get an RSC rating if they are even rated at all.

That does not mean that the more expensive mass market safes are a complete rip off...it just means that you have to understand that they are aimed at stopping/slowing down the average burglar in a smash and grab, not a professional...regardless of what their marketing makes it sound like.

 

[XinTX]

Guy on another board I'm on is in the safe business. He says the gold standard is the Graffunder, and it's what he keeps his guns in. But most likely can't afford it. When I was looking, I did spot a couple. They were all priced outside what I could swing. Next is the AMSEC. He says those are the toughest to get in to. Looked at some of those, and they're definitely top notch. At least the top tier AMSECs. They do sell some lower tier safes that aren't as good. But the BF series are among the best. Not quite Graffunder, but pretty close. Safe guy I've chatted with says he's never had to drill a BF, but has talked to some who have. Sayss if he's ever called to drill one he'll have to get lots of extra drill bits and pack a lunch as it will be a LONG day. Next I'd put the Fort Knox. Thing about them is that you can customize them to get just about anything you want. You can pay to upgrade the steel thickness, select different types of locks, pick different internal configurations, etc. Kind of pricey, (not as much as a Graffunder, or AMSEC BF) but you do get what you pay for. As others have said, the Champions are pretty nice as well. Some customization with them. Not as much as the Fort Knox, but you can add extra steel IIRC.

I ended up going with a lower level safe. We live in a gated neighborhood and the crime rate is pretty low. And even in this small neighborhood, we have several LEO that live here. I can walk to my mailbox and see one of their cars in the driveway. I'm more concerned about a smash-and-grab. So I got the biggest safe I could reasonably afford. And yes, it also has that 'gravitational field' as well. But if I lived in an area where the LEO response time would be 30+ minutes, what I have likely wouldn't be the best choice. But given that our PD station is less than a quarter mile from home, and I have several neighbors that are retired (home most of the day) and keep an eye on comings and goings, absolute security isn't my #1 concern. If someone wants the contents of my safe bad enough, they CAN get in there. But they'd have a very limited time to do so.

What I'm trying to say is, a safe that works for me might not be what works for you. It's kind of a balancing act. If money were no object, I'd get the Graffunder. But alas, that's not the case for me. And I don't have any guns that might be 'collectible'. Mostly ones I have sentimental connection to. But my main concern was to keep them out of the hands of a smash and grab 'crackhead' burglar.

 

[Tejano Scott]

Guy on another board I'm on is in the safe business. He says the gold standard is the Graffunder, and it's what he keeps his guns in. But most likely can't afford it. When I was looking, I did spot a couple. They were all priced outside what I could swing. Next is the AMSEC. He says those are the toughest to get in to. Looked at some of those, and they're definitely top notch. At least the top tier AMSECs. They do sell some lower tier safes that aren't as good. But the BF series are among the best. Not quite Graffunder, but pretty close. Safe guy I've chatted with says he's never had to drill a BF, but has talked to some who have. Sayss if he's ever called to drill one he'll have to get lots of extra drill bits and pack a lunch as it will be a LONG day. Next I'd put the Fort Knox. Thing about them is that you can customize them to get just about anything you want. You can pay to upgrade the steel thickness, select different types of locks, pick different internal configurations, etc. Kind of pricey, (not as much as a Graffunder, or AMSEC BF) but you do get what you pay for. As others have said, the Champions are pretty nice as well. Some customization with them. Not as much as the Fort Knox, but you can add extra steel IIRC.

I ended up going with a lower level safe. We live in a gated neighborhood and the crime rate is pretty low. And even in this small neighborhood, we have several LEO that live here. I can walk to my mailbox and see one of their cars in the driveway. I'm more concerned about a smash-and-grab. So I got the biggest safe I could reasonably afford. And yes, it also has that 'gravitational field' as well. But if I lived in an area where the LEO response time would be 30+ minutes, what I have likely wouldn't be the best choice. But given that our PD station is less than a quarter mile from home, and I have several neighbors that are retired (home most of the day) and keep an eye on comings and goings, absolute security isn't my #1 concern. If someone wants the contents of my safe bad enough, they CAN get in there. But they'd have a very limited time to do so.

What I'm trying to say is, a safe that works for me might not be what works for you. It's kind of a balancing act. If money were no object, I'd get the Graffunder. But alas, that's not the case for me. And I don't have any guns that might be 'collectible'. Mostly ones I have sentimental connection to. But my main concern was to keep them out of the hands of a smash and grab 'crackhead' burglar.

Excellent post. I agree with everything except my research has shown Fort Knox, especially depending what series you buy, can be same or more expensive than AmSec.

 

[peeps]

Thanks for clarifying Booya, makes sense!

 

[XinTX]

Excellent post. I agree with everything except my research has shown Fort Knox, especially depending what series you buy, can be same or more expensive than AmSec.

Been a while since I looked. But yeah. Especially if you take a Fort Knox and add on some of the options. Neither are in the "box store" price range. And the Graffunder is on another planet. AmSec makes some that are in the box store price range, but they're kind of flimsy in comparison to the BF.

 

[Tejano Scott]

That's pretty much what I've found. I saw one Graffunder and saw 11k and whimped out pretty quick. AmSec seems to be the best value for the money and Fort Knox seems to be most customizable.

 

[breakingcontact]

If a $xxxx safe is going to break you, then you might need to quit investing in guns since they're typically $xxx+ and work on improving your financial situation.

Yuck at the tone of that comment. "Do what I do or you must be some kinda brokester."

 

[breakingcontact]

A safe is only one part of an overall security plan, imho. Can I prevent someone from being successful at of a burglary? Depends on a lot of factors, of course. A quality safe takes more time.

I cannot stop a professional most likely, if they have time. My main goal is to be as secure as I can afford and slow them down as much as possible which doesn't give them the luxury of time.

jmho...

I was just thinking that. Safe is a good idea. So is making your property more secure overall with cameras and reinforced doors and what not. Oh also know your neighbors.

So the big big safes dont get bolted down? They just rely on weight to not walk off?

 

[RACER X]

Yuck at the tone of that comment. "Do what I do or you must be some kinda brokester."

Saying that getting a safe is some sort govt conspiracy to "break" gun owners is the asinine comment that brought that comment out


I bet probably only 1-2% of gun owners have a big safe


Prob less then 10% have a single gun safe


I went w an Amsec

 

[Booyah]

So the big big safes dont get bolted down? They just rely on weight to not walk off?

There is some validity to the idea that extra weight supplies extra security but any safe that is carried into place can be carried out...theoretically. I would still bolt down any safe regardless of weight, if for no other reason, because it doesn't cost much and isn't hard to do...compared to the overall cost and effort to get the safe in place to begin with.