Question about purchasing

[TreyG-20]

Hell of a shit show

This thread never stood a chance at being anything but a shit show.

 

[General Zod]

This thread never stood a chance at being anything but a shit show.

Notice that the OP hasn't been back since tossing this grenade. And it's his only post in almost a year.

 

[toddnjoyce]

I do not know why they keep mentioning about me selling as I have not sold a gun in 5 years and that was to help upgrade a youth gun for a full size since kids do get bigger later in life.

Generally speaking, buyers do not require a bill of sale as a condition of sale, which is what led to some confusion.

ATF usually looks at sellers and uses BOS’ as evidence of dealing in firearms. It would be unusual for them to look at a buyer for dealing; that’s usually straw purchases. The thing is, Federal courts have found no profit has to be made in a transfer and as few as two transfers can result in a conviction for dealing.

All that is in the pamphlet I linked up thread, for educational purposes.

While I don’t know you personally, I follow your threads specifically because of the youth work you do. My son was a 4H shooting sports kid and I appreciate the work that goes into that. I also understand how that can be turned into a business. And there’s one thing I’ve found consistent among federal agencies that regulate activities that can both be hobbies and commercial operations and it’s that federal agencies can accuse you of whatever they want. You have to be able to defend your actions to their standard and the government, be it local, state, or federal, has unlimited pocketbooks and time.

That’s not opinion, that’s fact. It’s also fact that written records are discoverable as evidence. You shoulder all the risk on that. As long as you’re comfortable with that, keep doing what you’re doing.

 

[Wiliamr]

Like I said I have not violated no laws.

Take this without emotion. In today's electronic universe, it does not matter what you have or have not done legally. What matters is the fact that the government can squash you like a bug with their unlimited resources. You may be able to beat the rap eventually, but in doing so, you will be bankrupted, you will loose your job, your family will be drug through the mud. Truth and reality, does not matter - what matters is the lies the alphabet agencies hold over you. 1984 was a chump world compared to where we are headed.

 

[TipBledsoe]

Yes I create my own bill of sale and have one copy for the other buyer and one for me and I store it.

…. He won’t admit it, but…

 

[Tnhawk]

Hell of a shit show

 

[Wiliamr]

CASH - my bill of sale.

 

[glenbo]

Last year I was trying to help a friend sell many of her deceased companion's firearms. I emailed BATFE to ask about the legality of selling from a private collection. This is their response, which I had previously posted in another thread.

"This is in response to your Email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB), inquiring about the legality and procedures for selling off your personnel firearms.



Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.”



Under federal law, conducting business “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that “the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.”



There is no limit to how many personally owned firearms an individual can sell or transfer, however, firearms cannot be purchased with the intent to sell them for a profit as a regular course of business as this meets the definition of dealing in firearms as noted above. If you wish to deal in firearms as a regular course of business for profit you must first obtain a Federal firearms license (FFL).



In simple terms, you do not need a Federal firearms license to liquidate a personal firearms collection, provided you have no intent to acquire and sell firearms on a regular basis with the intent to profit from the sale of the firearms.



A firearm is personnel property and may be gifted, willed, sold or transferred provided that the following laws and regulations are obeyed.



For face to face transfers:



1) Both the firearm possessor / seller and the individual receiving / buying the firearm must be residents of the same state.

2) The person transferring the firearm can have no knowledge that the person receiving it is prohibited from owning firearms.

3) If the firearm in question is a handgun, the person receiving the firearm must be at least 18 years of age.



There are no other requirements under federal law for the private face to face transferor of firearms, no forms or background checks of any kind need to be completed.



However, although there is no requirement that a back ground check to be completed in a face to face private transfer of a firearm ATF does recommend that the firearm be transferred through an FFL holder so that a background check is completed to insure the person receiving the firearm is not prohibited from possessing firearms.



As noted above, under the Gun Control Act of 1968 18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(3) & 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).



It is unlawful for any unlicensed person to receive a firearm from an unlicensed individual in any state other than his state of residence (see 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3).

It is also unlawful for any unlicensed person to transfer, sell, trade, give or deliver any firearm to an unlicensed person who the transferor knows does not reside in the state where the transferor resides ( see 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).



If the individual you wish to sell / transfer the firearm too resides in another state you would have to mail or deliver the firearm to a local Federal Firearms License (FFL) holder (gun store, pawn shop etc.) in that state and the individual would have to obtain the firearm from the FFL holder completing the required forms and back ground check etc.



Be advised that Federal firearms law prohibits a licensed dealer from transferring a handgun to any individual who is less than 21 years of age so if a face to face transfer cannot be lawfully completed a handgun cannot lawfully be transferred to an individual who is less than 21 years old.



All of the above applies to Federal Firearms Law and Regulation only.



We caution you that the States may have laws which regulate firearm transfers differently than does the federal government. We advise you to contact the authorities of your State of residence to learn of any laws governing the transfer and possession of firearms under State law.



We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive"



Michael S Knapp

Firearms Enforcement Specialist

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Firearms and Explosives Industry Division

Firearms Industry Programs Branch

You may note that he does not know the difference between personal and personnel.

 

[cbp210]

This day and age a fed will look at this sentence, zero in on the double negative, and take it as an admission of guilt for whatever offense they can invent.

Cool

 

[cbp210]

Take this without emotion. In today's electronic universe, it does not matter what you have or have not done legally. What matters is the fact that the government can squash you like a bug with their unlimited resources. You may be able to beat the rap eventually, but in doing so, you will be bankrupted, you will loose your job, your family will be drug through the mud. Truth and reality, does not matter - what matters is the lies the alphabet agencies hold over you. 1984 was a chump world compared to where we are headed.Oaky

Okay

 

[cbp210]

Generally speaking, buyers do not require a bill of sale as a condition of sale, which is what led to some confusion.

ATF usually looks at sellers and uses BOS’ as evidence of dealing in firearms. It would be unusual for them to look at a buyer for dealing; that’s usually straw purchases. The thing is, Federal courts have found no profit has to be made in a transfer and as few as two transfers can result in a conviction for dealing.

All that is in the pamphlet I linked up thread, for educational purposes.

While I don’t know you personally, I follow your threads specifically because of the youth work you do. My son was a 4H shooting sports kid and I appreciate the work that goes into that. I also understand how that can be turned into a business. And there’s one thing I’ve found consistent among federal agencies that regulate activities that can both be hobbies and commercial operations and it’s that federal agencies can accuse you of whatever they want. You have to be able to defend your actions to their standard and the government, be it local, state, or federal, has unlimited pocketbooks and time.

That’s not opinion, that’s fact. It’s also fact that written records are discoverable as evidence. You shoulder all the risk on that. As long as you’re comfortable with that, keep doing what you’re doing.

Never once straw purchased and thanks for your experience with 4H but I am not concerned with IRS or ATF.

 

[TipBledsoe]

 

[Texasgordo]

I still laugh about the member here who required a BOS for AMMO.

 

[Hoji]

Never once straw purchased and thanks for your experience with 4H but I am not concerned with IRS or ATF.

Neither was John Shipley.

 

[cbp210]

Neither was John Shipley.

Okay

 

[Renegade]

I believe you are supposed to check if they are a resident of the same state if selling a handgun, but other than that just use your judgement.

No such requirement either federally or at state level.

 

[glenbo]

No such requirement either federally or at state level.

From post 108, directly from the BATFE:

1) Both the firearm possessor / seller and the individual receiving / buying the firearm must be residents of the same state.

 

[Sam7sf]

AND both parties must shake hands naked while singing I’m a little tea pot.

 

[Renegade]

From post 108, directly from the BATFE:

1) Both the firearm possessor / seller and the individual receiving / buying the firearm must be residents of the same state.

Correct, and nowhere will you find any requirement to check ("I believe you are supposed to check"). They also cannot be felons, drug users, illegal aliens, and bunch of other things. No requirement to check on those either.

Never mind the fact there is no way to check if a person is a resident or not.

 

[Texasgordo]

AND both parties must shake hands naked while singing I’m a little tea pot.

You have a weird way of selling and buying guns