Be that guy ... gun safety.

[Mexican_Hippie]

Good gravy, is this thread still going?

 

[Kyle]

I've been in his shoes, and for years, and not once have I done what he did.

Being muzzle swept is one thing ... I would not have reacted the way I did for something like that. It was him pressing the trigger with the gun pointing at my face that made me react the way I did. I'm sorry, there's no "nice guy" when someone is doing that.

This kid won't learn ... the fact that he argued with me is enough to illustrate that. If someone got in my face I would have apologized immediately and told them I should know better. Why? Because it's not for me to decide, if that person felt unsafe enough to confront me then that is reason enough to address what I am doing.

I think you could have handled it differently. There is always room for being the "nice guy". You would have made a lasting impression on him if you approached him in a more positive, professional manner instead of the negative, demeaning route... I really think all you did was embarrass and sour him on the gun community, instead of allowing him the chance to correct himself. From my experience dealing with the general public, you get absolutely no where with anyone by yelling at them or making them feel foolish.

I really don't see, based on the info you provided, how he "argued" with you, you caught him off guard by the sound of it, which made him question your initial statement. All I see is that he tried to de-escalate a situation by explaining that it was not as unsafe as it appeared, then you proceeded to escalate the situation from there. Just my view of the situation you provided though.

 

[M. Sage]

I think you could have handled it differently. There is always room for being the "nice guy". You would have made a lasting impression on him if you approached him in a more positive, professional manner instead of the negative, demeaning route... I really think all you did was embarrass and sour him on the gun community, instead of allowing him the chance to correct himself. From my experience dealing with the general public, you get absolutely no where with anyone by yelling at them or making them feel foolish.

I really don't see, based on the info you provided, how he "argued" with you, you caught him off guard by the sound of it, which made him question your initial statement. All I see is that he tried to de-escalate a situation by explaining that it was not as unsafe as it appeared, then you proceeded to escalate the situation from there. Just my view of the situation you provided though.

I disagree. There isn't always room for being a nice guy. A situation that is immediately unsafe (someone's pointing a gun at your melon and has his finger on the trigger - I don't care if he checked it...) is not that kind of situation. It needs to be corrected immediately and if feelings get hurt, tough IMO. Besides being on ranges, I've had to deal with safety in pretty much every job I've had and can tell you that when someone is probably going to get hurt isn't the time.

Also, it doesn't even sound like the employee even checked it himself. "All our guns are checked..." or something to that degree sounds like "oh, it's cool - it's been checked."

That's how people get shot by accident.

 

[beau1911]

yes, I agree. Safty is for all. About 3yrs ago. I was cleaning my 1911 with latex gloves on. Doing the samething i have done for years. then I got a brain fart. Forgetting the oil, latex, and metal hammer. Do not mix. The end result was I got extremly luky, didnt blow half my leg off. it went threw the water pockect of my calf. missing the meat off the calf. Just causing nerve ending damage. It is what we laugh at today and call Beau's stupidy day. It is a painfull memory, and a hard leason to learn. SAFTY IS NOT A ONE PERSON JOB.

 

[Texas1911]

I think you could have handled it differently. There is always room for being the "nice guy". You would have made a lasting impression on him if you approached him in a more positive, professional manner instead of the negative, demeaning route... I really think all you did was embarrass and sour him on the gun community, instead of allowing him the chance to correct himself. From my experience dealing with the general public, you get absolutely no where with anyone by yelling at them or making them feel foolish.

I really don't see, based on the info you provided, how he "argued" with you, you caught him off guard by the sound of it, which made him question your initial statement. All I see is that he tried to de-escalate a situation by explaining that it was not as unsafe as it appeared, then you proceeded to escalate the situation from there. Just my view of the situation you provided though.

Being nice lasts about 10 seconds on a firing line ... you have to assert yourself in some situations and become dominant to control the situation. I broke his OODA loop and got in his head. I took control from him and rectified the situation. I don't care if I hurt his little feelings or soured him on guns. I solved a situation that involved me possibly being shot, or someone else.

The kid can ID me ... he was trying to tell other employees that I was "that guy" when I went in there last time. He thought it was funny ...

I was told that he was going to do something about me getting in his face but he thought I looked "squirrely" and didn't want to risk it. That's the measure of a person we are dealing with here.

Frankly, I don't live my life to please other people. I've seen so much rampant stupidity on firing lines that I don't hold back any more. I'm sick and tired of it and it goes on and on because no one does anything about it. When it involves the safety of me and people I care about I will not tolerate it. If it escalates into something then so be it ... it's the risk you take being proactive.

Negligently being shot is still being shot. Negligently being killed is still being killed. Ask the guy in the first post of this thread what that's like ... he'll be glad to tell you what it's like.

BTW, ... someone fired a round out of a gun at The Bullet Hole's gun shop and it traveled through several walls and struck someone in the head today. Still think I'm paranoid or over-reactive?

 

[busykngt]

It's why Sterling Arms (out of CT) no longer exists today. I have one of their .380s from the early 1980s = mine's a fine shooting little gun even to this day (just can't find extra magazines for it any longer). They were a metal fab shop that got into pistol making and were doing fairly well at it; however, it only had one safety - a thumb click up safety, not unlike a 1911. But in those days, there was no last shot hold open or loaded chamber indicator (etc.). So they agreed to stop making guns and shut their doors after being named for liability in a lawsuit brought by the dead girl's family. Turns out, the eighteen year old boyfriend just wanted to show his girlfriend his gun wasn't loaded and shot her in the head. As Ron White says, "you can't fix Stupid."

 

[tap&rack_TXinfidel]

OK, since you asked. I intensely dislike internet dog pile sessions where we have only one viewpoint. Although the original employee was wrong in his actions, this incident should have never left Cabelas, much less made a mandatory read when accessing this site. Texas1911 has the right to make a public spectacle of the event, but Tyler’s chest-thumping post about sticking a boot in his ass is a self-aggrandizing event, thus my previous post.

The employee has had no opportunity to state his case, nor probably any knowledge he has been called a moron and a dick-weed publicly by a co-worker. If he did, I fear Tyler might be unemployed if Cabelas knew. It works that way where I work as we have policies on social networking as it pertains to harassment. Also, disciplinary action or counseling are private matters protected by law. Everyone on this thread seems to be fond of spouting law when it makes his or her point.

I feel it was a mandatory read because Texas1911 has seen what complacency of firearms saftey can do to innocent people as well as pure idiots. To be honest, your saftey and my saftey comes before anything when you are at the firearms counter. And to have an employee openly argue with one of our customers who is feeling threatened or uncomfortable by the absence of safe gun handling, is not the image we want to project. "It's unloaded" was not a valid excuse, and while you may have reacted differently, we NEVER have the right to put you in any danger, and the correct response would have been an appoligy. If you handle firearms long enough, eventually somewhere, someone is going to be muzzled, but muzzling someones face while showing another customer how a trigger works is a different story. I talked to this employee privately at the end of the night, and his name was never mentioned anywhere on this thread that I'm aware of. I don't feel this was a "dog pile" as noone has been identified but me, saying that I am always happy to help any TGT member that walks through my doors. I assure you, the only one that would have lost his job in this fiasco was the one doing the dirty. But instead of Texas1911 calling the corp. office and getting him dismissed, he corrected this guy on the spot and that was that. The manager knows it happened and has his shit together over there. I've worked for him for a while now and this incident would not meet his saftey standards. I'm sorry you felt like this was just bashing one guy, but hopefully it also reminds you that no matter how much everyone likes bangsticks, at the end of the day they are still deadly weapons that require respect.

 

[Kyle]

I disagree. There isn't always room for being a nice guy. A situation that is immediately unsafe (someone's pointing a gun at your melon and has his finger on the trigger - I don't care if he checked it...) is not that kind of situation. It needs to be corrected immediately and if feelings get hurt, tough IMO. Besides being on ranges, I've had to deal with safety in pretty much every job I've had and can tell you that when someone is probably going to get hurt isn't the time.

Also, it doesn't even sound like the employee even checked it himself. "All our guns are checked..." or something to that degree sounds like "oh, it's cool - it's been checked."

That's how people get shot by accident.

Being nice lasts about 10 seconds on a firing line ... you have to assert yourself in some situations and become dominant to control the situation. I broke his OODA loop and got in his head. I took control from him and rectified the situation. I don't care if I hurt his little feelings or soured him on guns. I solved a situation that involved me possibly being shot, or someone else.

The kid can ID me ... he was trying to tell other employees that I was "that guy" when I went in there last time. He thought it was funny ...

I was told that he was going to do something about me getting in his face but he thought I looked "squirrely" and didn't want to risk it. That's the measure of a person we are dealing with here.

Frankly, I don't live my life to please other people. I've seen so much rampant stupidity on firing lines that I don't hold back any more. I'm sick and tired of it and it goes on and on because no one does anything about it. When it involves the safety of me and people I care about I will not tolerate it. If it escalates into something then so be it ... it's the risk you take being proactive.

Negligently being shot is still being shot. Negligently being killed is still being killed. Ask the guy in the first post of this thread what that's like ... he'll be glad to tell you what it's like.

BTW, ... someone fired a round out of a gun at The Bullet Hole's gun shop and it traveled through several walls and struck someone in the head today. Still think I'm paranoid or over-reactive?

Im not trying to get anyone's dander up here, not my intention at all. The point I am trying to make is that THIS SINGLE situation went down a harsh path and it did not need to go there. If you are being honest, in a place like Cabelas, you KNOW the guns are not loaded, just like at a gun show where every duffus in the world is swinging around a gun for examination, but no one says a word because we all know it isn't loaded. I personally would have just asked him to redirect the gun making him aware of what he is doing. If he had the gun in hand intentionally drawing the gun on you, then I would say you should pistol whip the kid on top of an ass chewing; but that does not appear to be the case. I taylor my responses to the circumstances at hand though.. For me, things are not black and white. That is all I am trying to say.

As far as the kid being able to ID you and how he is pointing you out to other employees, telling them he is going to do something about the way you treated him...he is just blowing smoke and trying to puff out his chest because you made him want to crawl into a hole. If you went off on ANYONE like that in a public setting, that is exactly the way 99.9% of the people are going to act after the situation subsides; They will hold a grudge. It has nothing to do with the measure of that person, that is just human nature. If an officer pulled you over and chewed your ass into hamburger in front of your family and friends for speeding because he thought you were putting their's and the lives of others in danger... You would be pissed, bitter and embarrassed (even though you were in the wrong) and for a while, any opportunity you had, you would tell someone how out of line that cop was; He could have approached you in a completely different way to get the same point across, but he didn't. Whether we admit it or not, this is how every last one of us is to some extent when we don't like the way we are being treated or spoken to.

At no point have I called you or implied that you are paranoid... in this one situation however, in my eyes, it was an over reaction. You have reason for it. I understand you on it, but the kid didn't deserve to be confronted like that.

There is absolutely Rampant stupidity on the firing lines, don't hold back, please! RO's are too complacent on the range. I ripped into a guy recently at the range I go to (which is largely unsupervised) for pointing his AR at me while he checked why it didn't go bang... it was a failure to fire... my asshole was so tight you couldn't drive a needle in it with a sledge hammer... I felt death breathing down my neck. I am sure that this incident at the bullet hole happened too fast for anyone to stop. A Terrible accident that is the fault of no one but the person handling the weapon; what a shame that someone else had to pay for his stupidity...

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree as far as the handling of that situation goes.

Now..... lets all hold hands and sing kumbaya!

 

[Bithabus]

just like at a gun show where every duffus in the world is swinging around a gun for examination, but no one says a word because we all know it isn't loaded.

Here are a few examples of unloaded firearms which were discharged at gunshows:

http://www.dailytribune.com/articles/2011/06/29/news/doc4e0b1af3896d7217259714.txt
[URL="http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/03/robert-farago/why-is-the-atf-investigating-gun-show-negligent-discharge/"]http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/03/robert-farago/why-is-the-atf-investigating-gun-show-negligent-discharge/
[URL="http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/other-areas/3933-accidental-discharge-pasadena-gun-show.html"]http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/other-areas/3933-accidental-discharge-pasadena-gun-show.html
[URL]http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/3018-negligent-discharge-pittsburgh-gun-show.html

[/URL][/URL][/URL]

 

[tap&rack_TXinfidel]

To be honest, a customer came in to the store TODAY with a guns that were "unloaded". Opened the breach, flump! out goes a loaded round. Not trying to ruin the kumbaya song though I swear. It happens about once a week. People simply forget or don't bother to check. "Unloaded guns just turn out to be loaded way too many times for me to ass-ume anything anymore.

If you are being honest, in a place like Cabelas, you KNOW the guns are not loaded, just like at a gun show where every duffus in the world is swinging around a gun for examination, but no one says a word because we all know it isn't loaded.

 

[slowboogie]

Sorry, I'm non-military. What's an REMF?

Rear Echelon Mother F***er

it was used as a derogatory term to describe a true bone head in the rear with the gear...dont get me wrong, not applied to everyone in support.

 

[M. Sage]

Kyle: How exactly do I know it's unloaded? Just because it's in the display case is no guarantee. Guns have been shipped from the factory with one in the chamber and there are enough ways for a gun to end up loaded after it gets to the store...I "know" the guns in Cabela's are unloaded just like I know that I unloaded my AR before I locked it up. Should I go home and attempt a dry fire without checking if it's clear? The same rules apply to all guns everywhere, all the time. Compromising basic safety rules is how people get shot. There is never, ever an excuse for compromising on the four rules.

 

[Kyle]

To be honest, a customer came in to the store TODAY with a guns that were "unloaded". Opened the breach, flump! out goes a loaded round. It happens about once a week. People simply forget or don't bother to check. "Unloaded guns just turn out to be loaded way too many times for me to ass-ume anything anymore.




That was a customer... not an employee standing behind the gun counter holding a gun from under the glass. but ill spell out my point on this in a seperate post even though it may get me banned... I AM NOT ARGUING GUN SAFETY... My point is being overlooked. I have said numerous times that he was right to approach the kid, but he was wrong in the fashion he approached him.

 

[Dcav]

Kyle: How exactly do I know it's unloaded? Just because it's in the display case is no guarantee. Guns have been shipped from the factory with one in the chamber and there are enough ways for a gun to end up loaded after it gets to the store...I "know" the guns in Cabela's are unloaded just like I know that I unloaded my AR before I locked it up. Should I go home and attempt a dry fire without checking if it's clear? The same rules apply to all guns everywhere, all the time. Compromising basic safety rules is how people get shot. There is never, ever an excuse for compromising on the four rules.

+1 "Knowing" a gun is unloaded is exactly why negligent discharges happen. A weapon is always loaded until proven otherwise.

 

[Judged1]

ouch

 

[ZX9RCAM]

+1 "Knowing" a gun is unloaded is exactly why negligent discharges happen. A weapon is always loaded until proven otherwise.

Pointing it at somebodies head & pulling the trigger is NOT a good way to prove it.....

 

[Kyle]

Kyle: How exactly do I know it's unloaded? Just because it's in the display case is no guarantee. Guns have been shipped from the factory with one in the chamber and there are enough ways for a gun to end up loaded after it gets to the store...I "know" the guns in Cabela's are unloaded just like I know that I unloaded my AR before I locked it up. Should I go home and attempt a dry fire without checking if it's clear? The same rules apply to all guns everywhere, all the time. Compromising basic safety rules is how people get shot. There is never, ever an excuse for compromising on the four rules.

Here are a few examples of unloaded firearms which were discharged at gunshows:

http://www.dailytribune.com/articles/2011/06/29/news/doc4e0b1af3896d7217259714.txt
[URL="http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/03/robert-farago/why-is-the-atf-investigating-gun-show-negligent-discharge/"]http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/03/robert-farago/why-is-the-atf-investigating-gun-show-negligent-discharge/
[URL="http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/other-areas/3933-accidental-discharge-pasadena-gun-show.html"]http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/other-areas/3933-accidental-discharge-pasadena-gun-show.html
[URL]http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/3018-negligent-discharge-pittsburgh-gun-show.html

[/URL][/URL][/URL]

I am going to spell out my point because it is being over looked. I am not arguing gun safety... I am arguing the approach. The kid was approached by an over reactive man. It was a kid that you perceived as inexperienced and you took the opportunity to be the BMOC and flex your muscle because you know he isn't going to get back in your face... If that was a 45 year old 250lb biker standing behind the counter, your first instinct would not have been to go off the deep end and threaten him with a loaded gun. Just like in a gun show where this exact circumstance happens 500 times in a day, no one says a word to anyone because you may confront the wrong guy and get yourself in a sticky situation. You are picking your battles... A Prime example: My dad just took a conceal and carry course, The instructor was an over the top gun guy who claimed to be the absolute authority on all weaponry. One of the girls in the course turned into the group with her gun after it stove piped and the instructor immediatly responded by saying "If you ever do that again you are going to get 2 in the chest, and 1 in the head, no questions asked!". His response would have been just fine, but Not 10 minutes after this, a 50 year old man did the exact same thing swinging around with his gun pointed into the group and the instructors response was, very calm and repectful, "please sir keep your gun pointed forward. What you are doing could kill someone." Why did he not take the same approach with that girl? Because there was no way in hell that girl was going to bow up to him and bite back; she was an easy target for him.

I know some of you are going to take the path that "well if I have to be a BMOC to survive and be safe, then that is what I am going to do"... and that is fine, but don't be selective about who you confront and how you confront them.

I have said NUMEROUS times that he was RIGHT to approach the kid... the kid was wrong in his handling. If you are taking my posts in a way that I am condoning poor weapons handling then you are not reading them in the correct context. My one and only issue here is the approach he took with the kid. You took the wrong tact in approaching the kid to correct him. If this took place at gun range you would have gotten an applause and a pat on the back from me and anyone else who takes this shit seriously. However, You did not teach that kid a single thing with your approach, all you did was piss him off and cause the employees in that section of the store to try avoid you in further dealings.

 

[kurt]

Give it up Kyle. I have!

 

[lalonguecarabine]

Kyle, you're assuming Alan is a spineless SOB who told this guy one thing because he thought he wouldn't talk back to him, and would take a different approach to someone who was "scary" to him.

What if this is how Alan handles that situation every single time no matter who the person mis-handling the gun is?
I don't know, and neither do you - unless you've personally witnessed him running off with his tail between his legs on one instance or another.

 

[lalonguecarabine]

WOW! This sure has turned into a really polarizing thread. And it shouldn't be!

ALL of us: Are we, or are we not for gun safety and following the four rules of gun safety at all times?

How one of us approaches that is an individual matter, much like home defense (rush out and confront an attacker, or stay safe and call the police while keeping your gun at the ready, etc. etc.). None of us is ever going to do the same exact things in the same exact ways!